What Can I Doooooo? with the ACLU: Maribel Hernández Rivera on Immigration and the Election
plus some updates from the Bay
Welcome to the third installment of our monthly interview series, What Can I Doooooo? with the ACLU. This month, Maribel Hernández Rivera is here to talk about immigration policy and what we should doooooo as the presidential election approaches. Read all about it in the transcript below, which has been lightly edited for readability. If you’d rather to listen to our conversation, just press play:
Meet Maribel Hernández Rivera
W. Kamau Bell: Hello everybody. Welcome to my Substack, Who's With Me? and our special recurring segment, “What Can I Doooooo? with the ACLU.” This month we're talking about immigration, and I'm pleased to be with an expert in immigration with the ACLU. Please introduce yourself, Maribel.
Maribel Hernández Rivera: Hi, Kamau, and hi, everyone. My name is Maribel Hernández Rivera. I am the Director of Policy and Government Affairs for Border and Immigration at the ACLU.
WKB: My first question is not related to immigration. It’s more for my kids. I just want to know how you're doing in the wave of the movie Encanto. The main character was named Maribel.
MHR: It's funny because I was born and raised in Mexico and I came to the U.S. when I was 13. And when I came, I didn't know how to pronounce my name in English. The Marybelle thing was just really hard. And the way I pronounced it, people thought it was Marble. One day, my name was written Marble. So then I said, “I'm owning it. My name is Maribel. I'm going to go with Maribel. That's the name.” But what's really exciting with Encanto is that people now know how to say Maribel. In Encanto it's Mirabel, but it's pretty close, so it's perfect.
WKB: That's right! [Calls out Mirabel!!!] I saw that movie a lot, so I know that to be the case. So, first of all, you just told me you're coming to us from Las Vegas. What's going on in Las Vegas right now? I hope you're having some fun along with all the good work you're doing.
MHB: Yes, I'm here for the LULAC National Convention. LULAC is a civil rights Latino organization. And they're getting here together to talk about policy, to talk about civil rights, to talk about how we help our people. And I'm very excited to be here to talk about immigration. I'll be on a panel alongside great names such as Gaby Pacheco and Sister Norma, people who have been fighting for immigrant rights. And it's just really a passion of mine. It's personal, it's professional, and I'm glad to be here.
WKB: Alright, I have to say, Mirabel, you have high spirits, which makes me feel good, but also when I think of immigration at this point in America, I don't think about having high spirits. So can you tell me how you keep that up? Can you also tell me the state of what's going on in immigration? What do most Americans not understand right now?
MHR: I'll tell you why I always have high spirits. I came here undocumented when I was 13. My father was undocumented until his death. He died in a car accident in South Carolina, and nobody called us to tell us what had happened. There was the highway patrol that was involved. There was the emergency services involved. The morgue involved. My dad had his phone on him. My dad had his driver's license with him. Nobody contacted us to let us know what had happened.
I decided to go into this work to honor his legacy. I keep my high spirits up because I need to do it for my father. I need to do it for many other people who are going through this. The way that people who are immigrants are dehumanized is inconceivable. We should not be doing that. So in my place of privilege now, I need to be using that privilege to be able to make sure that those stories are heard, that people understand what's going on.
Immigration + The Election
MHR: To your question about what's going on, what is the state of immigration right now? Well, what I can tell you is on the one hand, just last week, President Biden announced a new executive order that in fact will allow people who are undocumented spouses of U.S. citizens to have a pathway to citizenship. That is going to affect my husband. So that is a great joy for me! But many other people are left behind.
And at the same time, President Biden also, two weeks ago, announced an executive order that really limits and bans asylum for a ton of people who are vulnerable, for a ton of people who are running for their lives. Even worse than that, many people are left in danger because that's what we have seen with asylum bans again and again. We have seen that this puts people in danger.
So that's one thing. The other thing that's going on in immigration right now is we all know the election is coming up. And we all know that we have candidate Trump having a very strong anti-immigrant rhetoric. He has promised the biggest mass deportation mobilization that you've ever seen in American history. I can tell you that again, as somebody who's an immigrant, as somebody whose family members are immigrants, that is scary. What we need to do right now is we need to prepare and we need to figure out how we are gonna protect people if that were to be the case, because we saw Trump 1.0 was really hurtful to our communities. We know that a Trump 2.0 administration would be even more so.
WKB: First of all, thank you for sharing your story about your father. I'm sorry to hear that, and I think it really does honor his memory – the work you're doing and the way you're doing your work. So thank you for doing your work. Thank you for your service. We usually say that to military people but, but so many people like yourself are out here doing a service to the world and aren't seen often enough. So thank you for that.
Today – the day we’re recording this conversation – is the first presidential debate. So who knows, by the time this comes out, what will have already happened. Anything could happen now. It's a multiverse. Maybe they get into a fist fight? Who knows. I think one of the big problems that many Americans are having with this election is that the difference between the two candidates is not stark enough to inspire. For people on the left the difference between Trump and Biden is not stark enough to make you go, “Yes, I feel confident voting for Biden! That's the way I want to go.” And that's across many issues. Of course a lot of it's about Palestine. A lot of it's about immigration. So how do you talk to members of the immigrant community about this coming up election? I'm sure many can't vote because they don't have their documents, but for people who are in a position to vote, how do we navigate this?
MHR: Yes, well, first you mentioned voting. We’ll talk about our call to action at the end, but I'm going to talk about one thing right now. Vote, vote, vote. Because everybody who has access to the ballot, you are voting for yourself, but you're also voting for the community. You're also voting for people who cannot vote at this moment. So please go out and vote.
Now, in terms of the two candidates, yes, there are similarities, but there are also stark differences. We have not seen under the Biden administration, for example, the cruelty of ripping babies out of mothers hands. So we have that stark difference. We have not seen from this administration this idea of detention camps. The Trump administration is talking about detention camps. So in terms of immigration – even though I have to acknowledge and clarify that this administration has a long ways to go and there have been many times where they have skewed to the right and sometimes really followed previous policies from Trump 1.0 – it's not the same. It definitely is not the same.
My husband has temporary protected status from Honduras. President Trump tried to end that. And the fear that I had of losing my husband, of having to move to Honduras where I know that his family members have been killed, it's not the same fear that I have had now, right? I know, for example, President Biden actually reinstated TPS for Honduras. That is a big difference. So it is important to know that, yes, there are a lot of growth areas for the current administration. And at the same time, the administrations are not the same.
You thanked me for my service, and I should say, my younger brother is a chief petty officer in the U.S. Navy. This is important, because when we think about people who are immigrants, we often forget about our mixed-status families and how we are part of the community, right? Whereas my father passed away undocumented, my brother now is a chief petty officer in the United States Navy, and he's been there for 20-plus years. He's about to retire. We, people who are immigrants, are part of this community, and there are studies that have shown that, in fact, it is because of immigrants that our economy is growing. It is because of immigrants that we didn't go into recession. It is because of immigrants that we're filling the shortage in jobs that we have. So again, immigrants are an integral part of the U.S. community.
WKB: It seems like we used to understand that story. We love to tell the story that we are a nation of immigrants until the immigrants get to be too brown, it seems. That seems to be the place where we stop the romanticization of the immigrant story. Please continue.
MHR: Yeah. We know that the economy is doing well because of immigrants. We know that that is not something that can be disputed. And then again, to your point, the narrative changes. So we need to reclaim the narrative. We need to highlight the contributions that immigrants have made not just to the economy but to our communities. And also we need to talk about how immigration is good for the country. Even new immigrants! It's not about separating different immigrants. All immigrants are good for the country. The studies have shown that it’s new immigrants are in fact helping us grow this economy.
WKB: Yeah all the studies show that immigrants start businesses at a higher rate. Immigrants are innovators. There's a lot of technology that we think of as American technology that was started by immigrants – American innovation that was run by immigrants. And we have to keep saying those things over and over again because that's not the story that is told on most mainstream news channels.
MHR: I'll tell you why. Part of the why is we are being outspent. We have the anti-immigrant movement spending around $30 million versus the pro-immigrant movement spending about $700,000. The anti-immigrant movement is setting the conversation, setting what we're going to talk about, the framework. So that's why this is so important. That's why I thank you for having this conversation because we need to make sure that our stories, that our point of view is getting out. If not, what is driving the main narrative is the anti-immigrant movement.
WKB: Yes. So there's been a lot of talk about Project 2025 and what Trump and all of his people plan on doing if he gets back into office. And you've sort of alluded to that. Can you talk more about the ACLU's preparations for that, if that happens?
MHR: Yes. I mentioned earlier, Kamau, that I myself came here when I was 13. I was undocumented. Growing up undocumented, I didn't know that there were people who cared. Now, being at the ACLU, I'm like, whoa, there's all these people who care. Being here with you, like you care. That's why we're having this conversation.
So with Trump 1.0, I was really scared. I didn't know what was going to happen. What is Trump talking about this time? He's talking about mass deportation mobilization. What does he need to do that? Well, he needs detention centers. What can we do right now? We need to reduce that detention infrastructure because, in fact, there is no need to detain an immigrant who's seeking refuge. Through the data, we have seen that if people are given the community support that they need, they will show up to present their case in court. We don't need detention centers. We need community services. That's what we need. That's one.
What else do we know? Well, we know that he also has talked about going after birthright citizenship. Now this is really important because birthright citizenship comes from the constitution. It is a constitutional right. Now, if he wants to go against it, he will be going against the law. He will be violating the law. Unfortunately, we saw under his first administration that he could care less about the law. So that is why we cannot just say, “Well, we're going to hang out and we're going to just let the law and the courts do their thing.” That is not our only solution. That is not our only protection. We need to protect ourselves. That's why we need to go out and vote. We need to mobilize.
What else is he talking about? It is a constitutional right for children in the United States to have public education at the elementary, middle school, and high school level. That's a constitutional right. It has also been held by the Supreme Court. However, again, this person has said, “I'm going to get rid of this.” This is really scary because we're going to be creating different subclasses of citizens of our people. There are the people who have access to education, the people who don't have access to education. And we know what that means. It means that we have an underclass of people who don't have support that they need to thrive. Now, again, he would have to violate the constitution if he is going to go against the right to public school education. But we cannot count on him following the law. We have seen it again and again and again. He doesn't care about the law.
WKB: He was recently convicted of not following the law. And he's bragging about how his mugshot sells well. He clearly does not care about the law. As many people have said, I think he's excited to become president so he can disregard the law. He needs the protection from the laws of this country that presidents have historically gotten. That's for sure.
Can we talk about the Senate border bill, too?
MHR: Yes, President Biden started his administration saying he’s for comprehensive immigration reform. And let's make sure that people who are here in the United States are able to have a pathway to citizenship. Let's make sure that we're protecting asylum. He said all of this when he was a candidate for the presidency. Candidate Biden said, I am going to make sure that our asylum system is protected, that people have the right to due process to present their case in court. That's what he said. And that's how he started. That's not where we are now. He has shifted more and more and more to the right. So the Senate border bill was supposed to be a compromise, but really it was three people in the room who were having this conversation about creating the most pro-enforcement immigration bill that we have ever seen.
The bill was not about what people want. Let me tell you what the people want. We have done polling, and the American people want a balanced immigration approach. What does that mean? It means managing the border while at the same time making sure that people in the United States – long-time residents – have a pathway to citizenship. In that Senate border bill, you didn't see anything like that. You did not see talk about the dreamers. You did not see talk about long-time residents. They were completely excluded from this border bill.
What this border bill was all about was enforcement, which is just making sure that we punish people. It was about banning asylum. It was about policies that we have seen do not work. They didn't work under Trump 1.0. They're not gonna work now. Enforcement-only policies haven't worked. They haven't worked for decades. What we need is a balanced approach.
So to your question, what was the Senate border bill? I can tell you it was a catastrophe. I'm glad it didn't go through. And we should not let it go through because it doesn't solve the issues that we need to be thinking about.
WKB: On United Shades of America, we did an episode about the border. What was so telling to me was that the towns on both sides of the border used to have a very good relationship. People who lived in Mexico would work on the American side of the border and they would go home for lunch back in Mexico and then come back to finish their shift. It was just not a big deal to cross the border back and forth. Criminalizing the border has meant that people who normally used to have a good relationship on both sides now have no relationship at all because it takes two hours to get across the border. It's much harder to have a job on the American side of the border if you're not a citizen. It’s destroying relationships but also economies on both sides.
Asylum is a Legal Right
MHR: Yeah. I also had the opportunity to go to the border this past year. I was in San Diego. I was in Arizona. I was in Texas. What's really hard to see – and I bet you saw it when you went there – are the effects of the asylum ban. Trump 1.0, he instituted an asylum ban. Then last year, President Biden got rid of what was called Title 42, but then replaced it with another asylum ban. And then this year, a few weeks ago, he just announced a new one.
What happens then, is you have people across the U.S. border on the Mexican side of the border, waiting in tents. I met families who had traveled all the way from Venezuela coming here with their little children, and they were in tents. There was mud. I saw a little child, she must have been around six or seven. She was sick. She told me, “I'm sick.” And I said, “Okay, well, are you going to go to the doctor?” And she's like, “No, my medicine is right there.” And what they had was a table with a ton of different medicines for people to use as they thought made sense. This is a little child who had had a fever, who had been sick. I asked the mom, “What are your plans?” And she said, “I'm waiting for one of those appointments.” There's something called a CBP One appointment. But she's like, “I can't have one because I don't have a phone. I don't have internet, so I can't even get one. So I'm trying to get to the place where I can get one.” I also heard stories about the cartels going and raping women inside those tents. So it's just really horrible situations and circumstances that we are putting people in because of those policies that say, I don't care whether you're vulnerable. I don't care whether you're running for your life. I'm not going to let you in because of arbitrary policies.
WKB: You might hear about asylum in the news and think it's some sort of complicated process. But it’s not. If you just cross the border at any place and say, “I need asylum,” that's a legal thing you have just done. It is not illegal at any place to cross the border if you say, “I'm here because I need asylum.” That's how the system is supposed to work.
MHR: That's right, I'm glad you said that because what is very important for people to know is that asylum is a legal right, both under U.S. law and under international law. So when people come to the U.S. and they seek asylum, they are actually taking advantage of that legal right that they have. They are doing things according to the law.
When we close our border or when we say, “Well, if you cross between a port of entry, you can't get access to asylum,” that's when we are violating the law. So we have sued. We sued under Trump, and we are suing under Biden because, regardless of who's doing it, that is a violation of the law, and it's putting people's lives in danger. That's the other thing that we need to remember. We're talking about people. We're talking about mothers. We're talking about children. We're talking about people who are running for their lives because they have no other option. If you can think about being in your house, and your house catches on fire. You're not going to wait in your house until you get an appointment to be able to get out, right? You're going to get out and you're going to run. That's exactly what happens with these families. They are in crisis. They're running for their lives. They cannot wait to schedule their asylum appointment because that's just not how it works.
WKB: Yes. That really helps shift the perspective quite dramatically and quite quickly. The more we can make it plain for people who don't know these things, the easier it is to understand why you do the work you do and why that work needs to be supported.
Thumbs Up, Down, or Middle?
WKB: I really appreciate you, and I also love the way you delivered this information. It's inspiring. So before we close out, I ask everybody who comes in from the ACLU where do you feel like we're at in America? Thumbs up, thumbs down, thumbs somewhere in the middle? You can put your thumb wherever you want.
MHR: Well, I'll tell you that my thumb is really not completely down, but it's pretty down. It's pretty down because I can tell you, life for immigrants right now is difficult. Life for asylum seekers is just unbearable. But I'm going to tell you we cannot give up. I see it in the immigrant community. Our people who are immigrants, they are fighters. They're resilient. They are going to do what needs to be done.
You know, my father came here undocumented, not speaking English. And then just one generation later, his daughter goes to Harvard. His son is a U.S. Navy chief petty officer because of their sacrifices. So if they didn't give up, we're not going to give up. There is hope. So let's keep on the fight because this is really important. And our dreamers taught us that when we speak up, when we organize, we actually get change. So let's not give up. When you look at numbers, we are more than the number of people who are saying otherwise. So let's stand up. Let's unite. Let's get together, and let's fight for our rights.
What Can I Doooooo?
WKB: Thank you. Now let’s give these people some homework. My audience likes homework. This is called “What Can I Doooooo?” What can these people do?
MHR: I love what you said. What can you doooooo? I'll tell you what you can do.
(1) So at the systems level, you can contact your member of Congress. You can contact the White House. To say what? Well, you can contact Congress and the White House to say, first, let's close private detention centers. They are not helpful. They actually will be creating the machinery that a Trump 2 .0 administration could use against our communities. We have a petition you can sign to say, “Close private tension centers. This doesn't work.”
(2) That's at the systems level. What can you also do at the personal level? Because sometimes we feel like, well, you know, my vote, my call, does that really make a difference? I'm going to tell you, in my life, private one-on-one interactions have made a difference. I'm going to tell you, my ESL teacher, Leanne Dilabio, she would stay with me after school to teach me how to pronounce boat, as in the transportation boat, and vote, like I'm going to vote for so and so. She took time to not only help me learn English, learn how to pronounce things, but she also taught me what the chess club was all about. She would take me to tournaments.
In your day to day life, you can help people in your communities who need your help because you know more about how the system works than somebody who just recently arrived.
WKB: That's so great to know. We often underestimate our power when it comes to individual actions, and I appreciate that reminder.
The thing you said about the private detention centers that rings true is that if they get those up and running, they're not just going to keep it for undocumented folks. If those private detention centers go well, and they have the infrastructure, eventually they're coming to everybody's door when they decide that you've gone too far, whether you've broken the law or not. Like you said, it's happening with undocumented folks seeking asylum.
Thank you for helping wake us up to this. And thank you for being a guest today. And also hope you have a little fun in Vegas. I know you're there to do the good, important work, but you know, tell the ACLU I said you can have a little bit of fun.
MHR: Thank you. And I will say the last thing, vote, vote, vote. We need your vote. Thank you, Kamau.
WKB: Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
You’re With Me
Some updates before you go:
Calling All East Bay Filmmakers
As you may have heard, I’ve been working with some local folks to make filmmaking in the East Bay an actual industry. After more than a year of organizing and politicking, the city of Oakland has passed an ordinance and budget to fund Oakland’s new film incentive program and film development office! This proves once again that activism works, y’all!
If you are in the Bay Area, join Cinemama, the East Bay Film Collective, and me in celebrating the historic victory. Sam Bempong and Grace Porras from the EBFC will be at Night Heron on Thursday July 18th with updates and more info on next steps from #MakeItBay. (If you can’t make it to the event, but want to stay up on what’s happening, follow the East Bay Film Collective on IG.)
And check out this great coverage of the East Bay Film Collective from our local CBS news affiliate, KPIX. (They shot it on an iPhone. I swear I don’t look like that.)
Listen Up
Three treats for your ears.
Two weeks ago I had the honor of talking with Prentis Hemphill — the therapist, somatics teacher and facilitator, political organizer, writer and the founder of The Embodiment Institute — about their new book, What It Takes to Heal. (The book is so good. Check it out.) I know how grueling book tours can be, so I had some fun making this a unique interview for Prentis. You can listen to the full conversation here:
Second, here’s a new track that jazz trombonist Clifton Anderson sent me. It’s called “Been Down This Road Before.” Clifton says:
The song is sung by Andy Bey. (If you are a jazz fan, you likely know that name.) It was conceived in response to the continued social injustices and inequities people of color experience in this country, particularly in the criminal justice system.
The third treat is my third appearance on the podcast Live Wire. I tell a hilarious story involving my 9 year-old who was traveling with me. The episode also features podcaster Jane Marie, who appeared on our Austin, TX episode of United Shades of America to talk about multilevel marketing schemes. We had fun, so give it a listen.